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    Tiger, Swing Coach Sean Foley Part Ways

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    Poe4soul

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    Tiger, Swing Coach Sean Foley Part Ways

    Post  Poe4soul on Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:53 am

    http://www.tigerwoods.com/news/2014/08/25/91338338/tiger-swing-coach-sean-foley-part-ways/

    Here's a couple of quotes from Foley's students.

    “It's comical,” Hunter Mahan told GolfChannel.com. “It frustrates me and kind of angers me a little bit. But you know, that's the world we live in and that's just kind of the way things are, and Foley is better for it because he can handle a guy like Tiger -- a lot comes with that and I think he's done a pretty good job of containing himself and not letting it bother him. He just does his job every day and does it better than anyone.”

    Said 2013 U.S. Open champion Justin Rose, another Foley student: "I think with Tiger, they’ve had to work around a lot of things. It’s probably very frustrating for Tiger and it’s probably very frustrating for Sean. . . . There are definitely moves that Sean is trying to get out of there that are compromising his health.”

    “People say, ‘Oh, Butch 2000 – just go back to that.’ Unfortunately, it’s not possible, bio-mechanically and speed and wear and tear,” explained Rose. “I’m sure Tiger would love to do that; I’m sure there are many aspects of that Sean would love to recreate."

    Interesting.  We'll see if it was Tiger's swing coach or his broken body/mind. It's ironic that he fired Foley the weekend one of his students won the 1st playoff of the Fedex cup. I personally think Tiger is broken and won't play golf like he used to.  If he can learn to play shots and not try to explode on every shot, he might get some wins but he's not ever going to dominate like he once did.
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    Horseballs

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    Re: Tiger, Swing Coach Sean Foley Part Ways

    Post  Horseballs on Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:34 am

    I never liked Foley's obsession with trackman or his insistence on wearing a fanny pack. I find golf nerds in general to be off-putting, and Foley is the king of golf nerds.
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    Lorenzzo

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    Re: Tiger, Swing Coach Sean Foley Part Ways

    Post  Lorenzzo on Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:01 am

    Interesting how other pros could see what Tiger couldn't.  It's called denial.

    I believe I gave a comprehensive explanation of what Tiger should do and why in another thread.

    By the way both Rose and Mahan are among the more intelligent guys on tour.  Tiger really isn't.
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    Mongrel

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    Re: Tiger, Swing Coach Sean Foley Part Ways

    Post  Mongrel on Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:17 pm

    I'll give you Rose for sure but I'm not too sure about Mahan. Anyway, being smart does not equal being a world class golf player. I've spent a little time back when around Trevino, Nicklaus, Palmer, Player and some of the boys they used to compete against on the big tour. Neither Trevino nor Palmer were rocket scientists but Trevino had the feline street smarts of the feral East L.A. street urchin and Palmer would have been a greenskeeper like his father except he could really get the ball in the hole. Nicklaus was brighter than both of them and Player was and is a prince among men.

    How smart could a kid who was raised like Tiger be? No one knows because all he did was do golf from when he could walk until present time. Now he's not stupid and is probably real good with money. Not on the Trump level but then Tiger has not gone bankrupt in any deals we know about and would probably not be leveraging a whole bunch when he steps into one. Both Nicklaus and Palmer were on the verge of insolvancy in the past decades.

    All Tiger needs to do is lose some weight, stop pumping iron, rest the back and do excercises that stretch the appropriate muscles instead of bulking them up. Then he'll need a more languid swing relying more on timing than brute strength to hit his shots. Any pro could swing coach him. I mean, he could do it himself with all the video and simulator gear available. Hell, an LPGA caddy could assist him in the short game just by standing behind him and lining him up. Maybe he needs an LPGA caddy. Or get Lindsey to carry his baggage.

    Oh, and Mahan can have Foley. I'm looking forward to Mahan fluffing an easy chip on the 18th hole of the Sunday singles this September to give the Euros the Cup.
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    trombettista_vecchio

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    Re: Tiger, Swing Coach Sean Foley Part Ways

    Post  trombettista_vecchio on Thu Aug 28, 2014 2:43 pm

    The enormous effort and lengthy work that athletes put into their games is what enables them to reach their potential, but the potential itself is an accident of birth.

    You get the toolbox with which you were born and can never improve it.  The athlete's job is to learn how to both use and take care of his tools, and the results will show how good his natural toolbox was.

    Tiger learned how to use his incredibly generous toolbox expertly, but perhaps he didn't learn how to take care of the tools.  And once they're worn or broken, there is no source of new ones.  The very same thing happened to the great Oscar DeLaHoya.  For him, it was tough to go running at 6AM when he awoke in silk pajamas next to some Victoria's Secret underwear model. I don't think Tiger skimped on physical fitness, but he may have chosen an unwise regimen, involving steroids or not, and permanently injured himself.


    Last edited by trombettista_vecchio on Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:40 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling)
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    Lorenzzo

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    Re: Tiger, Swing Coach Sean Foley Part Ways

    Post  Lorenzzo on Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:24 pm

    Horseballs wrote:I never liked Foley's obsession with trackman or his insistence on wearing a fanny pack.  I find golf nerds in general to be off-putting, and Foley is the king of golf nerds.

    I agree with you on the fanny pack. Women get to carry purses around. Guys have no close alternative. That's where the Fannypack had potential. But it just make someone look like they're a doofus.
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    Lorenzzo

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    Re: Tiger, Swing Coach Sean Foley Part Ways

    Post  Lorenzzo on Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:10 am

    trombettista_vecchio wrote:The enormous effort and lengthy work that athletes put into their games is what enables them to reach their potential, but the potential itself is an accident of birth.

    You get the toolbox with which you were born and can never improve it.  The athlete's job is to learn how to both use and take care of his tools, and the results will show how good his natural toolbox was.

    Tiger learned how to use his incredibly generous toolbox expertly, but perhaps he didn't learn how to take care of the tools.  And once they're worn or broken, there is no source of new ones.  The very same thing happened to the great Oscar DeLaHoya.  For him, it was tough to go running at 6AM when he awoke in silk pajamas next to some Victoria's Secret underwear model. I don't think Tiger skimped on physical fitness, but he may have chosen an unwise regimen, involving steroids or not, and permanently injured himself.

    Self-indulgence Nifty?
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    trombettista_vecchio

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    Re: Tiger, Swing Coach Sean Foley Part Ways

    Post  trombettista_vecchio on Fri Aug 29, 2014 10:08 am

    Lorenzzo wrote:
    Self-indulgence Nifty?

    I highly recommend it for people like myself who aren't going to lose much because of it.

    For the gifted, a little self-dicipline would likely be helpful.
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    Poe4soul

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    Re: Tiger, Swing Coach Sean Foley Part Ways

    Post  Poe4soul on Fri Aug 29, 2014 10:29 am

    Lorenzzo wrote:
    trombettista_vecchio wrote:The enormous effort and lengthy work that athletes put into their games is what enables them to reach their potential, but the potential itself is an accident of birth.

    You get the toolbox with which you were born and can never improve it.  The athlete's job is to learn how to both use and take care of his tools, and the results will show how good his natural toolbox was.

    Tiger learned how to use his incredibly generous toolbox expertly, but perhaps he didn't learn how to take care of the tools.  And once they're worn or broken, there is no source of new ones.  The very same thing happened to the great Oscar DeLaHoya.  For him, it was tough to go running at 6AM when he awoke in silk pajamas next to some Victoria's Secret underwear model. I don't think Tiger skimped on physical fitness, but he may have chosen an unwise regimen, involving steroids or not, and permanently injured himself.

    Self-indulgence Nifty?

    To most peoples surprise, there is difference between being fit and being healthy. Sometimes there is an cost of one's health to be fit, especially at the pro level.
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    Lorenzzo

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    Re: Tiger, Swing Coach Sean Foley Part Ways

    Post  Lorenzzo on Fri Aug 29, 2014 11:36 am

    trombettista_vecchio wrote:
    Lorenzzo wrote:
    Self-indulgence Nifty?

    I highly recommend it for people like myself who aren't going to lose much because of it.

    For the gifted, a little self-dicipline would likely be helpful.

    Perhaps you underestimate yourself. The Chinese have Confucius… We needed someone like that.
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    Lorenzzo

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    Re: Tiger, Swing Coach Sean Foley Part Ways

    Post  Lorenzzo on Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:10 pm

    Poe4soul wrote:
    Lorenzzo wrote:
    trombettista_vecchio wrote:The enormous effort and lengthy work that athletes put into their games is what enables them to reach their potential, but the potential itself is an accident of birth.

    You get the toolbox with which you were born and can never improve it.  The athlete's job is to learn how to both use and take care of his tools, and the results will show how good his natural toolbox was.

    Tiger learned how to use his incredibly generous toolbox expertly, but perhaps he didn't learn how to take care of the tools.  And once they're worn or broken, there is no source of new ones.  The very same thing happened to the great Oscar DeLaHoya.  For him, it was tough to go running at 6AM when he awoke in silk pajamas next to some Victoria's Secret underwear model. I don't think Tiger skimped on physical fitness, but he may have chosen an unwise regimen, involving steroids or not, and permanently injured himself.

    Self-indulgence Nifty?

    To most peoples surprise, there is difference between being fit and being healthy.  Sometimes there is an cost of one's health to be fit, especially at the pro level.

    Getting away from the semantics of it… so true.  As a guy in his 50s who still lifts, conditions and realizes how much things are advancing, it's sad and amusing.

    I'm not a Natty because I use Creatine. But I would never use gHs. Nattys eat eggs by the truckload. I don't touch whole eggs. I do dead lifts without wrist wraps because I don't care how much I'm lifting only that it's an efficient use of my time and effort. And I like healthy wrists. Nattys would never admit to using them. And number of plates is their gauge.

    I lift only twice a week because it helps avoid injury, I have a life and the benefits beyond that are slim. To be taken seriously among those who take it seriously five per week is the min. I try different routines because conditioning is far from an exact science and is evolving. But the heard slavishly sticks together and does the same thing despite a lack of data or research. If Arnold or Lou did it it's good. The way they lift almost guarantees they will be compromised before they reach my age.

    Those are just a few examples of what you're talking about.

    It's like anything else… 80% don't know what they're talking about. Okay maybe 99.5%. Do you know who knows state of the art? The coaches here. It's always fun to chat with them. You just never really know what substances are integrated into their approaches. Of course they'll never tell you. To avoid gHs completely is to be left behind. The athletes want to win and will take the risk. This is supposition on my part because few will talk.

    My goals relate to 80% health and 20% vanity. Since health is the greater goal I'd be stupid to sacrifice health for fitness. This places me in a small minority.

    Right now there is a lot of discussion about Hugh Jackman. He can single rep dead lift over 400 pounds. That's not bad for a guy who is 6'2" although not world blazing either. My lower body does fine without deadlifts which stress the body. Machine leg presses balance finess and health.

    Anyways… From photos it's fairly obvious Jackman uses. There's just no other way to gain 20 pounds of lean muscle between roles. The prevailing thought is Hollywood uses more than athletes. Everyone seems to give them a pass because of the nature of their work.

    Yet in this bizarre society of ours they are our greatest role models. Granted some say athletes. It sure as hell ain't smart people. I guess the take from all of this is humans are fucking weird.
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    Poe4soul

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    Re: Tiger, Swing Coach Sean Foley Part Ways

    Post  Poe4soul on Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:44 pm

    Lorenzzo wrote:
    Poe4soul wrote:
    Lorenzzo wrote:
    trombettista_vecchio wrote:The enormous effort and lengthy work that athletes put into their games is what enables them to reach their potential, but the potential itself is an accident of birth.

    You get the toolbox with which you were born and can never improve it.  The athlete's job is to learn how to both use and take care of his tools, and the results will show how good his natural toolbox was.

    Tiger learned how to use his incredibly generous toolbox expertly, but perhaps he didn't learn how to take care of the tools.  And once they're worn or broken, there is no source of new ones.  The very same thing happened to the great Oscar DeLaHoya.  For him, it was tough to go running at 6AM when he awoke in silk pajamas next to some Victoria's Secret underwear model. I don't think Tiger skimped on physical fitness, but he may have chosen an unwise regimen, involving steroids or not, and permanently injured himself.

    Self-indulgence Nifty?

    To most peoples surprise, there is difference between being fit and being healthy.  Sometimes there is an cost of one's health to be fit, especially at the pro level.

    Getting away from the semantics of it… so true.  As a guy in his 50s who still lifts, conditions and realizes how much things are advancing, it's sad and amusing.

    I'm not a Natty because I use Creatine. But I would never use gHs. Nattys eat eggs by the truckload. I don't touch whole eggs. I do dead lifts without wrist wraps because I don't care how much I'm lifting only that it's an efficient use of my time and effort. And I like healthy wrists. Nattys would never admit to using them. And number of plates is their gauge.

    I lift only twice a week because it helps avoid injury, I have a life and the benefits beyond that are slim. To be taken seriously among those who take it seriously five per week is the min. I try different routines because conditioning is far from an exact science and is evolving. But the heard slavishly sticks together and does the same thing despite a lack of data or research. If Arnold or Lou did it it's good. The way they lift almost guarantees they will be compromised before they reach my age.

    Those are just a few examples of what you're talking about.

    It's like anything else… 80% don't know what they're talking about. Okay maybe 99.5%. Do you know who knows state of the art? The coaches here. It's always fun to chat with them. You just never really know what substances are integrated into their approaches. Of course they'll never tell you. To avoid gHs completely is to be left behind. The athletes want to win and will take the risk. This is supposition on my part because few will talk.

    My goals relate to 80% health and 20% vanity. Since health is the greater goal I'd be stupid to sacrifice health for fitness. This places me in a small minority.

    Right now there is a lot of discussion about Hugh Jackman. He can single rep dead lift over 400 pounds. That's not bad for a guy who is 6'2" although not world blazing either. My lower body does fine without deadlifts which stress the body. Machine leg presses balance finess and health.

    Anyways… From photos it's fairly obvious Jackman uses. There's just no other way to gain 20 pounds of lean muscle between roles. The prevailing thought is Hollywood uses more than athletes. Everyone seems to give them a pass because of the nature of their work.

    Yet in this bizarre society of ours they are our greatest role models. Granted some say athletes. It sure as hell ain't smart people. I guess the take from all of this is humans are fucking weird.

    Iv'e done a fair bit of reading on fitness and the one's I've gotten the most from are Olympic coaches. Simplicity seems to reign with the goal of having a slow but steady progression. The amount of time their athletes spend on strength training is far less than I see most amateurs spending. Many profess that 80% of your time should be working on technique of your sport with only 20% on strength training. And this is for strength sports like throwing and gymnastics.

    It appears that Tiger got that equation backward for a while. Many weekend amateur athletes get this wrong. They spend all week in the gym and little time actually perfecting their technique.

    To be world class, your probably going to wear some part of your body down. Shoulders, hips, knees, etc. It's not if, but when, at the world class level. One injury in most sports will take you out of world class competition for the season. The time lost not training puts you way too far behind your competition. This is Tiger's issue right now. Even if he get's healthy, he's behind all the players that have been practicing and playing daily during the time he was off. It's double jeopardy at that level.

    What's the conversation about Jackman? I personally give little respect for the people that lift for looks. Bodybuilding is for the non-athletic person. I'm more impressed with someone that can perform. To me that is the definition of fitness is to be able to do a task. It could be swimming, running, biking, Olympic lifting, rock climbing, etc. Pushing weight through a short range of motion with a fixed bar will help build muscle but it won't help you be fit.
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    Lorenzzo

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    Re: Tiger, Swing Coach Sean Foley Part Ways

    Post  Lorenzzo on Fri Aug 29, 2014 1:02 pm

    Poe4soul wrote:
    Lorenzzo wrote:
    Poe4soul wrote:
    Lorenzzo wrote:
    trombettista_vecchio wrote:The enormous effort and lengthy work that athletes put into their games is what enables them to reach their potential, but the potential itself is an accident of birth.

    You get the toolbox with which you were born and can never improve it.  The athlete's job is to learn how to both use and take care of his tools, and the results will show how good his natural toolbox was.

    Tiger learned how to use his incredibly generous toolbox expertly, but perhaps he didn't learn how to take care of the tools.  And once they're worn or broken, there is no source of new ones.  The very same thing happened to the great Oscar DeLaHoya.  For him, it was tough to go running at 6AM when he awoke in silk pajamas next to some Victoria's Secret underwear model. I don't think Tiger skimped on physical fitness, but he may have chosen an unwise regimen, involving steroids or not, and permanently injured himself.

    Self-indulgence Nifty?

    To most peoples surprise, there is difference between being fit and being healthy.  Sometimes there is an cost of one's health to be fit, especially at the pro level.

    Getting away from the semantics of it… so true.  As a guy in his 50s who still lifts, conditions and realizes how much things are advancing, it's sad and amusing.

    I'm not a Natty because I use Creatine. But I would never use gHs. Nattys eat eggs by the truckload. I don't touch whole eggs. I do dead lifts without wrist wraps because I don't care how much I'm lifting only that it's an efficient use of my time and effort. And I like healthy wrists. Nattys would never admit to using them. And number of plates is their gauge.

    I lift only twice a week because it helps avoid injury, I have a life and the benefits beyond that are slim. To be taken seriously among those who take it seriously five per week is the min. I try different routines because conditioning is far from an exact science and is evolving. But the heard slavishly sticks together and does the same thing despite a lack of data or research. If Arnold or Lou did it it's good. The way they lift almost guarantees they will be compromised before they reach my age.

    Those are just a few examples of what you're talking about.

    It's like anything else… 80% don't know what they're talking about. Okay maybe 99.5%. Do you know who knows state of the art? The coaches here. It's always fun to chat with them. You just never really know what substances are integrated into their approaches. Of course they'll never tell you. To avoid gHs completely is to be left behind. The athletes want to win and will take the risk. This is supposition on my part because few will talk.

    My goals relate to 80% health and 20% vanity. Since health is the greater goal I'd be stupid to sacrifice health for fitness. This places me in a small minority.

    Right now there is a lot of discussion about Hugh Jackman. He can single rep dead lift over 400 pounds. That's not bad for a guy who is 6'2" although not world blazing either. My lower body does fine without deadlifts which stress the body. Machine leg presses balance finess and health.

    Anyways… From photos it's fairly obvious Jackman uses. There's just no other way to gain 20 pounds of lean muscle between roles. The prevailing thought is Hollywood uses more than athletes. Everyone seems to give them a pass because of the nature of their work.

    Yet in this bizarre society of ours they are our greatest role models. Granted some say athletes. It sure as hell ain't smart people. I guess the take from all of this is humans are fucking weird.

    Iv'e done a fair bit of reading on fitness and the one's I've gotten the most from are Olympic coaches. Simplicity seems to reign with the goal of having a slow but steady progression.  The amount of time their athletes spend on strength training is far less than I see most amateurs spending. Many profess that 80% of your time should be working on technique of your sport with only 20% on strength training. And this is for strength sports like throwing and gymnastics.

    It appears that Tiger got that equation backward for a while.  Many weekend amateur athletes get this wrong.  They spend all week in the gym and little time actually perfecting their technique.

    To be world class, your probably going to wear some part of your body down.  Shoulders, hips, knees, etc.  It's not if, but when, at the world class level.  One injury in most sports will take you out of world class competition for the season.  The time lost not training puts you way too far behind your competition.  This is Tiger's issue right now.  Even if he get's healthy, he's behind all the players that have been practicing and playing daily during the time he was off.  It's double jeopardy at that level.

    What's the conversation about Jackman?  I personally give little respect for the people that lift for looks.  Bodybuilding is for the non-athletic person.  I'm more impressed with someone that can perform.  To me that is the definition of fitness is to be able to do a task.  It could be swimming, running, biking, Olympic lifting, rock climbing, etc.  Pushing weight through a short range of motion with a fixed bar will help build muscle but it won't help you be fit.

    Mass to those targeting fitness is a byproduct of gaining strength. That's it. For those like me who admit to vanity, it means a little more but it isn't hard to gain adequate mass targeting strength. Strength matters in sports. At least every one in which I've been involved. It just can't be at the expense of technique or health. I can tell you competitive skiers focus a lot on strength training.

    Sadly, in today's world with gHs less time is devoted to it amongst world-class athletes. That's just the way it is. If however you want strength to perform and you don't use it does take plates. Proven is the relationship between breaking down muscle tissue through use of heavy weights, mass and strength. It's the only way.

    That said… There is an industry of opportunists who confuse people into thinking you can combine aerobics and strength building. You can't. It's not even debated anymore.
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    Poe4soul

    Posts : 417
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    Re: Tiger, Swing Coach Sean Foley Part Ways

    Post  Poe4soul on Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:15 pm

    Lorenzzo wrote:
    Poe4soul wrote:
    Lorenzzo wrote:
    Poe4soul wrote:
    Lorenzzo wrote:
    trombettista_vecchio wrote:The enormous effort and lengthy work that athletes put into their games is what enables them to reach their potential, but the potential itself is an accident of birth.

    You get the toolbox with which you were born and can never improve it.  The athlete's job is to learn how to both use and take care of his tools, and the results will show how good his natural toolbox was.

    Tiger learned how to use his incredibly generous toolbox expertly, but perhaps he didn't learn how to take care of the tools.  And once they're worn or broken, there is no source of new ones.  The very same thing happened to the great Oscar DeLaHoya.  For him, it was tough to go running at 6AM when he awoke in silk pajamas next to some Victoria's Secret underwear model. I don't think Tiger skimped on physical fitness, but he may have chosen an unwise regimen, involving steroids or not, and permanently injured himself.

    Self-indulgence Nifty?

    To most peoples surprise, there is difference between being fit and being healthy.  Sometimes there is an cost of one's health to be fit, especially at the pro level.

    Getting away from the semantics of it… so true.  As a guy in his 50s who still lifts, conditions and realizes how much things are advancing, it's sad and amusing.

    I'm not a Natty because I use Creatine. But I would never use gHs. Nattys eat eggs by the truckload. I don't touch whole eggs. I do dead lifts without wrist wraps because I don't care how much I'm lifting only that it's an efficient use of my time and effort. And I like healthy wrists. Nattys would never admit to using them. And number of plates is their gauge.

    I lift only twice a week because it helps avoid injury, I have a life and the benefits beyond that are slim. To be taken seriously among those who take it seriously five per week is the min. I try different routines because conditioning is far from an exact science and is evolving. But the heard slavishly sticks together and does the same thing despite a lack of data or research. If Arnold or Lou did it it's good. The way they lift almost guarantees they will be compromised before they reach my age.

    Those are just a few examples of what you're talking about.

    It's like anything else… 80% don't know what they're talking about. Okay maybe 99.5%. Do you know who knows state of the art? The coaches here. It's always fun to chat with them. You just never really know what substances are integrated into their approaches. Of course they'll never tell you. To avoid gHs completely is to be left behind. The athletes want to win and will take the risk. This is supposition on my part because few will talk.

    My goals relate to 80% health and 20% vanity. Since health is the greater goal I'd be stupid to sacrifice health for fitness. This places me in a small minority.

    Right now there is a lot of discussion about Hugh Jackman. He can single rep dead lift over 400 pounds. That's not bad for a guy who is 6'2" although not world blazing either. My lower body does fine without deadlifts which stress the body. Machine leg presses balance finess and health.

    Anyways… From photos it's fairly obvious Jackman uses. There's just no other way to gain 20 pounds of lean muscle between roles. The prevailing thought is Hollywood uses more than athletes. Everyone seems to give them a pass because of the nature of their work.

    Yet in this bizarre society of ours they are our greatest role models. Granted some say athletes. It sure as hell ain't smart people. I guess the take from all of this is humans are fucking weird.

    Iv'e done a fair bit of reading on fitness and the one's I've gotten the most from are Olympic coaches. Simplicity seems to reign with the goal of having a slow but steady progression.  The amount of time their athletes spend on strength training is far less than I see most amateurs spending. Many profess that 80% of your time should be working on technique of your sport with only 20% on strength training. And this is for strength sports like throwing and gymnastics.

    It appears that Tiger got that equation backward for a while.  Many weekend amateur athletes get this wrong.  They spend all week in the gym and little time actually perfecting their technique.

    To be world class, your probably going to wear some part of your body down.  Shoulders, hips, knees, etc.  It's not if, but when, at the world class level.  One injury in most sports will take you out of world class competition for the season.  The time lost not training puts you way too far behind your competition.  This is Tiger's issue right now.  Even if he get's healthy, he's behind all the players that have been practicing and playing daily during the time he was off.  It's double jeopardy at that level.

    What's the conversation about Jackman?  I personally give little respect for the people that lift for looks.  Bodybuilding is for the non-athletic person.  I'm more impressed with someone that can perform.  To me that is the definition of fitness is to be able to do a task.  It could be swimming, running, biking, Olympic lifting, rock climbing, etc.  Pushing weight through a short range of motion with a fixed bar will help build muscle but it won't help you be fit.

    Mass to those targeting fitness is a byproduct of gaining strength. That's it. For those like me who admit to vanity, it means a little more but it isn't hard to gain adequate mass targeting strength. Strength matters in sports. At least every one in which I've been involved. It just can't be at the expense of technique or health. I can tell you competitive skiers focus a lot on strength training.

    Sadly, in today's world with gHs less time is devoted to it amongst world-class athletes. That's just the way it is. If however you want strength to perform and you don't use it does take plates. Proven is the relationship between breaking down muscle tissue through use of heavy weights, mass and strength. It's the only way.

    That said… There is an industry of opportunists who confuse people into thinking you can combine aerobics and strength building. You can't. It's not even debated anymore.

    Some of the strongest people are not big. Bodybuilders, pond for pond are weak. Put them up against an olympic wrestler, boxer, olympic weightlifter, rock climber, etc. and they'll outperform any bodybuilder with mass. I'd personally would rather have explosive strength than mass. I guess that comes from wrestling in HS. The Jackman types are not usually functional, but they look good. I could be wrong. I don't know anything about his workout,s or what he does besides working out and being an actor.

    Unlike you, I'm not chasing any fantasy of being superior athletically. I like to compete, but it doesn't define me or who I am. I workout to stay healthy. Which includes strength training, and some explosive strength training. the later is enough to keep my hart in shape. I hate aerobic training. You can have the biking, running, etc. I don't enjoy it.


    I agree about strength training being important but there's more ways to achieve it than pushing plates. Gymnast don't weight lift and they are plenty strong. Having a full range of motion is as important to me as being strong is. Weightlifting does nothing for range or motion.
    avatar
    Lorenzzo

    Posts : 672
    Join date : 2012-12-05
    Location : Park City, UT

    Re: Tiger, Swing Coach Sean Foley Part Ways

    Post  Lorenzzo on Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:27 pm

    Poe4soul wrote:
    Lorenzzo wrote:
    Poe4soul wrote:
    Lorenzzo wrote:
    Poe4soul wrote:
    Lorenzzo wrote:
    trombettista_vecchio wrote:The enormous effort and lengthy work that athletes put into their games is what enables them to reach their potential, but the potential itself is an accident of birth.

    You get the toolbox with which you were born and can never improve it.  The athlete's job is to learn how to both use and take care of his tools, and the results will show how good his natural toolbox was.

    Tiger learned how to use his incredibly generous toolbox expertly, but perhaps he didn't learn how to take care of the tools.  And once they're worn or broken, there is no source of new ones.  The very same thing happened to the great Oscar DeLaHoya.  For him, it was tough to go running at 6AM when he awoke in silk pajamas next to some Victoria's Secret underwear model. I don't think Tiger skimped on physical fitness, but he may have chosen an unwise regimen, involving steroids or not, and permanently injured himself.

    Self-indulgence Nifty?

    To most peoples surprise, there is difference between being fit and being healthy.  Sometimes there is an cost of one's health to be fit, especially at the pro level.

    Getting away from the semantics of it… so true.  As a guy in his 50s who still lifts, conditions and realizes how much things are advancing, it's sad and amusing.

    I'm not a Natty because I use Creatine. But I would never use gHs. Nattys eat eggs by the truckload. I don't touch whole eggs. I do dead lifts without wrist wraps because I don't care how much I'm lifting only that it's an efficient use of my time and effort. And I like healthy wrists. Nattys would never admit to using them. And number of plates is their gauge.

    I lift only twice a week because it helps avoid injury, I have a life and the benefits beyond that are slim. To be taken seriously among those who take it seriously five per week is the min. I try different routines because conditioning is far from an exact science and is evolving. But the heard slavishly sticks together and does the same thing despite a lack of data or research. If Arnold or Lou did it it's good. The way they lift almost guarantees they will be compromised before they reach my age.

    Those are just a few examples of what you're talking about.

    It's like anything else… 80% don't know what they're talking about. Okay maybe 99.5%. Do you know who knows state of the art? The coaches here. It's always fun to chat with them. You just never really know what substances are integrated into their approaches. Of course they'll never tell you. To avoid gHs completely is to be left behind. The athletes want to win and will take the risk. This is supposition on my part because few will talk.

    My goals relate to 80% health and 20% vanity. Since health is the greater goal I'd be stupid to sacrifice health for fitness. This places me in a small minority.

    Right now there is a lot of discussion about Hugh Jackman. He can single rep dead lift over 400 pounds. That's not bad for a guy who is 6'2" although not world blazing either. My lower body does fine without deadlifts which stress the body. Machine leg presses balance finess and health.

    Anyways… From photos it's fairly obvious Jackman uses. There's just no other way to gain 20 pounds of lean muscle between roles. The prevailing thought is Hollywood uses more than athletes. Everyone seems to give them a pass because of the nature of their work.

    Yet in this bizarre society of ours they are our greatest role models. Granted some say athletes. It sure as hell ain't smart people. I guess the take from all of this is humans are fucking weird.

    Iv'e done a fair bit of reading on fitness and the one's I've gotten the most from are Olympic coaches. Simplicity seems to reign with the goal of having a slow but steady progression.  The amount of time their athletes spend on strength training is far less than I see most amateurs spending. Many profess that 80% of your time should be working on technique of your sport with only 20% on strength training. And this is for strength sports like throwing and gymnastics.

    It appears that Tiger got that equation backward for a while.  Many weekend amateur athletes get this wrong.  They spend all week in the gym and little time actually perfecting their technique.

    To be world class, your probably going to wear some part of your body down.  Shoulders, hips, knees, etc.  It's not if, but when, at the world class level.  One injury in most sports will take you out of world class competition for the season.  The time lost not training puts you way too far behind your competition.  This is Tiger's issue right now.  Even if he get's healthy, he's behind all the players that have been practicing and playing daily during the time he was off.  It's double jeopardy at that level.

    What's the conversation about Jackman?  I personally give little respect for the people that lift for looks.  Bodybuilding is for the non-athletic person.  I'm more impressed with someone that can perform.  To me that is the definition of fitness is to be able to do a task.  It could be swimming, running, biking, Olympic lifting, rock climbing, etc.  Pushing weight through a short range of motion with a fixed bar will help build muscle but it won't help you be fit.

    Mass to those targeting fitness is a byproduct of gaining strength. That's it. For those like me who admit to vanity, it means a little more but it isn't hard to gain adequate mass targeting strength. Strength matters in sports. At least every one in which I've been involved. It just can't be at the expense of technique or health. I can tell you competitive skiers focus a lot on strength training.

    Sadly, in today's world with gHs less time is devoted to it amongst world-class athletes. That's just the way it is. If however you want strength to perform and you don't use it does take plates. Proven is the relationship between breaking down muscle tissue through use of heavy weights, mass and strength. It's the only way.

    That said… There is an industry of opportunists who confuse people into thinking you can combine aerobics and strength building. You can't. It's not even debated anymore.

    Some of the strongest people are not big.  Bodybuilders, pond for pond are weak.  Put them up against an olympic wrestler, boxer, olympic weightlifter, rock climber, etc. and they'll outperform any bodybuilder with mass.  I'd  personally would rather have explosive strength than mass. I guess that comes from wrestling in HS.  The Jackman types are not usually functional, but they look good.  I could be wrong.  I don't know anything about his workout,s or what he does besides working out and being an actor.

    Unlike you, I'm not chasing any fantasy of being superior athletically.  I like to compete, but it doesn't define me or who I am.  I workout to stay healthy.  Which includes strength training, and some explosive strength training. the later is enough to keep my hart in shape.  I hate aerobic training.  You can have the biking, running, etc.  I don't enjoy it.


    I agree about strength training being important but there's more ways to achieve it than pushing plates.  Gymnast don't weight lift and they are plenty strong.  Having a full range of motion is as important to me as being strong is. Weightlifting does nothing for range or motion.

    LOL.  Who said anything about bodybuilding? You're ignorance on this subject is breathtaking.

    I don't mean to be unkind but of all the posters I've witnessed, your propensity to mistate, self justify and rationlize leaves Larry in the dust.

    With your permission I'd like to repost some of your stuff on a fitness site. Not the kettle bells aerobic strength stuff though. It's already been beaten to death.

    I'm realizing your neighbor is not such a bad guy but your mirror could use a bit of a tuneup.
    avatar
    Poe4soul

    Posts : 417
    Join date : 2012-12-08
    Location : Portland, OR

    Re: Tiger, Swing Coach Sean Foley Part Ways

    Post  Poe4soul on Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:49 pm

    Lorenzzo wrote:
    Poe4soul wrote:
    Lorenzzo wrote:
    Poe4soul wrote:
    Lorenzzo wrote:
    Poe4soul wrote:
    Lorenzzo wrote:
    trombettista_vecchio wrote:The enormous effort and lengthy work that athletes put into their games is what enables them to reach their potential, but the potential itself is an accident of birth.

    You get the toolbox with which you were born and can never improve it.  The athlete's job is to learn how to both use and take care of his tools, and the results will show how good his natural toolbox was.

    Tiger learned how to use his incredibly generous toolbox expertly, but perhaps he didn't learn how to take care of the tools.  And once they're worn or broken, there is no source of new ones.  The very same thing happened to the great Oscar DeLaHoya.  For him, it was tough to go running at 6AM when he awoke in silk pajamas next to some Victoria's Secret underwear model. I don't think Tiger skimped on physical fitness, but he may have chosen an unwise regimen, involving steroids or not, and permanently injured himself.

    Self-indulgence Nifty?

    To most peoples surprise, there is difference between being fit and being healthy.  Sometimes there is an cost of one's health to be fit, especially at the pro level.

    Getting away from the semantics of it… so true.  As a guy in his 50s who still lifts, conditions and realizes how much things are advancing, it's sad and amusing.

    I'm not a Natty because I use Creatine. But I would never use gHs. Nattys eat eggs by the truckload. I don't touch whole eggs. I do dead lifts without wrist wraps because I don't care how much I'm lifting only that it's an efficient use of my time and effort. And I like healthy wrists. Nattys would never admit to using them. And number of plates is their gauge.

    I lift only twice a week because it helps avoid injury, I have a life and the benefits beyond that are slim. To be taken seriously among those who take it seriously five per week is the min. I try different routines because conditioning is far from an exact science and is evolving. But the heard slavishly sticks together and does the same thing despite a lack of data or research. If Arnold or Lou did it it's good. The way they lift almost guarantees they will be compromised before they reach my age.

    Those are just a few examples of what you're talking about.

    It's like anything else… 80% don't know what they're talking about. Okay maybe 99.5%. Do you know who knows state of the art? The coaches here. It's always fun to chat with them. You just never really know what substances are integrated into their approaches. Of course they'll never tell you. To avoid gHs completely is to be left behind. The athletes want to win and will take the risk. This is supposition on my part because few will talk.

    My goals relate to 80% health and 20% vanity. Since health is the greater goal I'd be stupid to sacrifice health for fitness. This places me in a small minority.

    Right now there is a lot of discussion about Hugh Jackman. He can single rep dead lift over 400 pounds. That's not bad for a guy who is 6'2" although not world blazing either. My lower body does fine without deadlifts which stress the body. Machine leg presses balance finess and health.

    Anyways… From photos it's fairly obvious Jackman uses. There's just no other way to gain 20 pounds of lean muscle between roles. The prevailing thought is Hollywood uses more than athletes. Everyone seems to give them a pass because of the nature of their work.

    Yet in this bizarre society of ours they are our greatest role models. Granted some say athletes. It sure as hell ain't smart people. I guess the take from all of this is humans are fucking weird.

    Iv'e done a fair bit of reading on fitness and the one's I've gotten the most from are Olympic coaches. Simplicity seems to reign with the goal of having a slow but steady progression.  The amount of time their athletes spend on strength training is far less than I see most amateurs spending. Many profess that 80% of your time should be working on technique of your sport with only 20% on strength training. And this is for strength sports like throwing and gymnastics.

    It appears that Tiger got that equation backward for a while.  Many weekend amateur athletes get this wrong.  They spend all week in the gym and little time actually perfecting their technique.

    To be world class, your probably going to wear some part of your body down.  Shoulders, hips, knees, etc.  It's not if, but when, at the world class level.  One injury in most sports will take you out of world class competition for the season.  The time lost not training puts you way too far behind your competition.  This is Tiger's issue right now.  Even if he get's healthy, he's behind all the players that have been practicing and playing daily during the time he was off.  It's double jeopardy at that level.

    What's the conversation about Jackman?  I personally give little respect for the people that lift for looks.  Bodybuilding is for the non-athletic person.  I'm more impressed with someone that can perform.  To me that is the definition of fitness is to be able to do a task.  It could be swimming, running, biking, Olympic lifting, rock climbing, etc.  Pushing weight through a short range of motion with a fixed bar will help build muscle but it won't help you be fit.

    Mass to those targeting fitness is a byproduct of gaining strength. That's it. For those like me who admit to vanity, it means a little more but it isn't hard to gain adequate mass targeting strength. Strength matters in sports. At least every one in which I've been involved. It just can't be at the expense of technique or health. I can tell you competitive skiers focus a lot on strength training.

    Sadly, in today's world with gHs less time is devoted to it amongst world-class athletes. That's just the way it is. If however you want strength to perform and you don't use it does take plates. Proven is the relationship between breaking down muscle tissue through use of heavy weights, mass and strength. It's the only way.

    That said… There is an industry of opportunists who confuse people into thinking you can combine aerobics and strength building. You can't. It's not even debated anymore.

    Some of the strongest people are not big.  Bodybuilders, pond for pond are weak.  Put them up against an olympic wrestler, boxer, olympic weightlifter, rock climber, etc. and they'll outperform any bodybuilder with mass.  I'd  personally would rather have explosive strength than mass. I guess that comes from wrestling in HS.  The Jackman types are not usually functional, but they look good.  I could be wrong.  I don't know anything about his workout,s or what he does besides working out and being an actor.

    Unlike you, I'm not chasing any fantasy of being superior athletically.  I like to compete, but it doesn't define me or who I am.  I workout to stay healthy.  Which includes strength training, and some explosive strength training. the later is enough to keep my hart in shape.  I hate aerobic training.  You can have the biking, running, etc.  I don't enjoy it.


    I agree about strength training being important but there's more ways to achieve it than pushing plates.  Gymnast don't weight lift and they are plenty strong.  Having a full range of motion is as important to me as being strong is. Weightlifting does nothing for range or motion.

    LOL.  Who said anything about bodybuilding? You're ignorance on this subject is breathtaking.

    I don't mean to be unkind but of all the posters I've witnessed, your propensity to mistate, self justify and rationlize leaves Larry in the dust.

    With your permission I'd like to repost some of your stuff on a fitness site. Not the kettle bells aerobic strength stuff though. It's already been beaten to death.

    I'm realizing your neighbor is not such a bad guy but your mirror could use a bit of a tuneup.

    Which fitness site would you be referring to? I just curious so I can get educated about fitness.
    avatar
    Kiwigolfer

    Posts : 477
    Join date : 2012-12-05
    Location : A land downunder

    Re: Tiger, Swing Coach Sean Foley Part Ways

    Post  Kiwigolfer on Sat Aug 30, 2014 6:21 am

    You two guys arguing about the relative merits of different fitness regimens is about the nearest thing we get to a flame war around here these days. Ok I'll take it. Wink

    avatar
    FamousDavis
    Admin

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    Join date : 2012-12-04

    Re: Tiger, Swing Coach Sean Foley Part Ways

    Post  FamousDavis on Sat Aug 30, 2014 10:18 am

    Lorenzzo wrote:
    Horseballs wrote:I never liked Foley's obsession with trackman or his insistence on wearing a fanny pack.  I find golf nerds in general to be off-putting, and Foley is the king of golf nerds.

    I agree with you on the fanny pack. Women get to carry purses around. Guys have no close alternative. That's where the Fannypack had potential. But it just make someone look like they're a doofus.

    I will never hold a woman's purse for her. I don't care if we are at a department store and she needs to go into the bathroom or try on a dress. She should be trying on lengerie and high heels for me anyway. Maybe a french maid's outfit or ICU nurse.

    I'm tired of men becoming immasculated. Sean Foley is a metrosexual to the 10th degree. I bet he waxes his entire body, has manicures and uses Botox. The good news of Tiger Wood's canning him is that pretty soon I won't have to see Sean Foley lessons in Golf Digest any longer.

    I hope Tiger goes back to Butch Harmon. Only because I want to see history made. Rory proved at the PGA that he doesn't have what it takes to win 18 majors. His drive on the 18th was more stupid that Van De Velde's. Rory came within 2 feet of rolling into that creek. It it had gone in it would have changed everything. Dumbest play I've seen since that Frenchman losing the British.

    Whew.
    avatar
    FamousDavis
    Admin

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    Re: Tiger, Swing Coach Sean Foley Part Ways

    Post  FamousDavis on Sat Aug 30, 2014 10:20 am

    Kiwigolfer wrote:You two guys arguing about the relative merits of different fitness regimens is about the nearest thing we get to a flame war around here these days. Ok I'll take it. Wink


    All I would need to do is post a photo of me with my shirt off. That alone would prove that whatever workout regimine I partake in is the best.
    avatar
    Kiwigolfer

    Posts : 477
    Join date : 2012-12-05
    Location : A land downunder

    Re: Tiger, Swing Coach Sean Foley Part Ways

    Post  Kiwigolfer on Sat Aug 30, 2014 1:31 pm

    FamousDavis wrote:
    Kiwigolfer wrote:You two guys arguing about the relative merits of different fitness regimens is about the nearest thing we get to a flame war around here these days. Ok I'll take it. Wink


    All I would need to do is post a photo of me with my shirt off.  That alone would prove that whatever workout regimine I partake in is the best.  

    In the 'good old days' of GR we settled our differences like men, in a golf 'grudge' match, like you and Noshuz did. These days you, Zo and Poe just need to turn up on the 1st tee with posing trunks and tanning oil and settle your differences in a pose down. The losers can buy the winner a round of protein shakes to settle the grudge and ensure there are no hard feelings. Suspect
    avatar
    Mongrel

    Posts : 1761
    Join date : 2012-12-04
    Location : The Oort Cloud

    Re: Tiger, Swing Coach Sean Foley Part Ways

    Post  Mongrel on Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:11 pm

    FamousDavis wrote:
    Lorenzzo wrote:
    Horseballs wrote:I never liked Foley's obsession with trackman or his insistence on wearing a fanny pack.  I find golf nerds in general to be off-putting, and Foley is the king of golf nerds.

    I agree with you on the fanny pack. Women get to carry purses around. Guys have no close alternative. That's where the Fannypack had potential. But it just make someone look like they're a doofus.

    I will never hold a woman's purse for her.  I don't care if we are at a department store and she needs to go into the bathroom or try on a dress.  She should be trying on lengerie and high heels for me anyway.  Maybe a french maid's outfit or ICU nurse.  

    I'm tired of men becoming immasculated.  Sean Foley is a metrosexual to the 10th degree.  I bet he waxes his entire body, has manicures and uses Botox.  The good news of Tiger Wood's canning him is that pretty soon I won't have to see Sean Foley lessons in Golf Digest any longer.  

    I hope Tiger goes back to Butch Harmon.  Only because I want to see history made.  Rory proved at the PGA that he doesn't have what it takes to win 18 majors.  His drive on the 18th was more stupid that Van De Velde's.   Rory came within 2 feet of rolling into that creek.  It it had gone in it would have changed everything.  Dumbest play I've seen since that Frenchman losing the British.

    Whew.

    I don't think that Butch or any of his sons would welcome Tiger back into the fold. Of course the Dollar Do Talk, as they say in the 'hood. Of course I never met Sean Foley but just looking at pictures of him the the Golf Magazine gives me the creeps. And he plays rap or hip hop all the time in his shop and through his ear buds from his device. Heavy Wigger mojo. Too bad that old man in Scotland died. You know, the one who Paddy Harrington went to when his game tanked and after his sessions, he won a couple of Majors. Sam Torrance's old man.

    I was routing hard for Sergio. He should have made that putt and made Vandervelde's follies moot. The Scot who ended up winning the playoff had as much charisma as the Pall Mall Red 100 butt I just stubbed out in the ashtray sitting next to the laptop upon which I am banging out this important post. Mongrel out.

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    Pky6471

    Posts : 836
    Join date : 2012-12-05
    Location : Between DC and NY

    Re: Tiger, Swing Coach Sean Foley Part Ways

    Post  Pky6471 on Sat Aug 30, 2014 5:15 pm

    Mongrel wrote:.

    I don't think that Butch or any of his sons would welcome Tiger back into the fold. Of course the Dollar Do Talk, as they say in the 'hood. Of course I never met Sean Foley but just looking at pictures of him the the Golf Magazine gives me the creeps. And he plays rap or hip hop all the time in his shop and through his ear buds from his device. Heavy Wigger mojo. Too bad that old man in Scotland died. You know, the one who Paddy Harrington went to  when his game tanked and after his sessions, he won a couple of Majors. Sam Torrance's old man.

    I was routing hard for Sergio. He should have made that putt and made Vandervelde's follies moot. The Scot who ended up winning the playoff had as much charisma as the Pall Mall Red 100 butt I just stubbed out in the ashtray sitting next to the laptop upon which I am banging out this important post. Mongrel out.

    [/quote]

    I have a Golf magazine with his picture on the front page... He does look like AC/DC to me
    avatar
    Lorenzzo

    Posts : 672
    Join date : 2012-12-05
    Location : Park City, UT

    Re: Tiger, Swing Coach Sean Foley Part Ways

    Post  Lorenzzo on Tue Sep 02, 2014 2:04 pm

    Kiwigolfer wrote:
    FamousDavis wrote:
    Kiwigolfer wrote:You two guys arguing about the relative merits of different fitness regimens is about the nearest thing we get to a flame war around here these days. Ok I'll take it. Wink


    All I would need to do is post a photo of me with my shirt off.  That alone would prove that whatever workout regimine I partake in is the best.  

    In the 'good old days' of GR we settled our differences like men, in a golf 'grudge' match, like you and Noshuz did. These days you, Zo and Poe just need to turn up on the 1st tee with posing trunks and tanning oil and settle your differences in a pose down. The losers can buy the winner a round of protein shakes to settle the grudge and ensure there are no hard feelings. Suspect

    I'd post a photo of my schlong but then the little bit of flaming we have would end.  I'm literally huge.

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